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I am not that good at programming. I finished my masters degree in electronics. I want to learn C#, the .NET Framework, and SQL. How much time do you think it would take (if I have 5 hours a day to devote to it)? Also, what order do I learn them in? I have Visual Web Developer 2008, is that enough to begin?
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I should have specified that I wish to make a career out .NET Development. I'd like to give myself 2 months to get the 'basics' down. As a developer, what is expected out of you in IT companies? What skillset do they require and what are the responsibilities as a junior or mid-level developer? I don't have any industry experience, will I be able to get a feel of the job duties while at home?
That's like asking how long it would take to learn French:
1 day to learn what it is
1 week to learn it to an infant/elementary level
1 year to be considered a beginner by professionals
Several years to be considered an experienced professional
Plus there's "deep" knowledge of those subjects which a mere mortal such as you or I will never learn
Then again, plenty of people (most normal people, non-programmers) never learn those subjects, so if you're like "most" people then the answer would be "it would take forever" or "it will never happen".
Dive right it, make it a hobby, and have fun :)
Coming from an electronics background myself I can tell you that you should pick it up pretty quickly. And having an electronics background will give you a deeper understanding of the underlying hardware.
IMHO the root of information technology is electronics.
For example..
Think of objects as components.
The .NET framework is essentially drawers full of standard components.
For example you know what a 7400 (NAND gate) is capable of doing. You have a data sheet showing the pin outs and sample configurations. You don't typically care about the circuitry inside. Software objects are the same way. We have inputs and we have methods that do something to the inputs to produce predictable outputs. As developers we typically don't care how the object was written... just that it does what it says it will do.
You also know that you can build additional logic circuits by using two or more NAND gates. This of this as instantiation.
You also know that you can take a NAND gate and place it inside a circuit where you can modify the input signals coming in so the outputs have different behaviors. This is a crude example but you can think of this as inheritance.
I have also learned it helps to have a project to work on. It could be a hobbyist project or a work project. Start small, get something very basic working, and work up from there.
To answer your specific question on "what should I learn first".
1) Take your project you have in mind and break it into steps. For example... get a number from the user, add one to the number, display the result. Think of this as your design.
2) Learn basic C#. Write a simple console application that does something. Learn what an if statement is (this is all boolean logic so it should be somewhat familiar), learn about loops, learn about mathematical operations, learn about functions (subroutines). Play with simple file i/o (reading and writing text files). The basic C# can be thought of as your wiring and discrete components (resistors, caps, transistors, etc) to your chips (object).
3) Learn how to instantiate and use objects from the framework. You have already been doing this but now it's time to delve in further. For example... play with System.Console some more... try making the speaker beep. Also start looking for objects that you may want to use for database work.
4) Learn basic SQL. Lots of help and examples online. Pick a database you want to work with. I personally think MS Access is a great beginners database. I would not use it for multi-user or cross platform desktop applications... but it is a great single user database for Windows users... and it is a great way to learn the basics of SQL. There are other simple free databases available (Open Office has one for example) if you don't want to shell out $ for Access.
5) Expand your app to do something with a database.
Just do it! Don't sweat the details.
Well, it will take you forever. There is so much to learn about programming that 10 years are not enough.
http://norvig.com/21-days.html
Don't get me wrong, you will learn the basics quickly enough, but to become good at it will take much longer.
You should focus on an area and try to make some examples, if you choose web development, start with an hello world web page, then add some code to it. Learn about postbacks, viewstate and Sessions. Try to master ifs, cycles and functions, you really have a lot to cover, it's not easy to say "this is the best way to learn".
I guess in the end you will learn on a need to do basis.
The best thing about C# is that it is very catchy. Easy to pick up, and you'll also have fun doing it.
But .Net framework is a very big library full of wonderful things to discover, and yet again due to the nature of .Net you'll also have fun learning it. It's a coherent, object oriented, well documented library, and C# makes it so simple to work with it that you can simply discover your way through it while coding.
The vast majority of articles, books or resources about .Net and C# simply concentrate on explaining functionality and the framework and far less about how to avoid quirks, workarounds or exceptional cases, like it happens with other languages I don't want to name (*cough C++*) so in the end the experience of learning C# and .Net is very enjoyable from start to finish, and the things you can accomplish using .Net also makes it very rewarding.
You picked a good language to start with, in my opinion, and finally to answer your question, it will take you about:
2 to 3 months to learn the basics
1 to 2 years to become a versed developer
5 years or more to become a expert or, depending on your dedication, a "guru".
But then again, beating the numbers and breaking the limits lies inside human nature. Can you do it faster than this? ;-)
How long is a piece of string? I think this is subjective. I know programmers that have learned an extraordinary amount in a very short time based on the experience that they've exposed themselves to.
Basically, get your hands dirty and you're bound to learn more.
It really depends on what you mean by "learn". You could probably spend a week and get a couple of pages up on the web that had some minimal level of interactivity to save information entered by the user in some database, and then have some other pages for querying and displaying the information. You could then spend the next 10 years of your life learning all the intricacies of the .Net framework, SQL, and mastering using the IDE.
The period of which you are capable of learning really depends on your ability to grasp the logic behind programming while where to learn from depends on your learning style.
If you are a learn-by-a-book type of guy, just jump on Amazon.com and perform a quick search, pick up the book with the best reviews or wait for someone here to recommend a book (I'm not a programming by book guy)
If you prefer screencasts (video feeds demonstrating what to do) or tutorials, then go straight to the source: http://www.asp.net/learn/. There are tons of videos and tutorials explaining everything you need to get started.
Visual Web Developer 2008 Express should be all you need to get started. Basically, the express editions are Visual Studio chopped down to a precise set of functionality to accomplish one thing. They don't have some of the bells and whistles needed for large scale development, but everything you should need.
Can't tell how long it would take, it really depends on your existing knowlege. I managed to learn the C#/.NET 2.0 core basics in about 2 months.
My suggestion to you: Try to learn towards exams, they make sure your learning covers all important parts and also guide you through this new technology. See Microsoft Learning.
If you have any programming experience, you can probably learn the C# syntax in a few hours, and be comfortable with it within a week or so. However, you will not be writing complex structures unless you write a lot of code with it. It's really the same as learning any language: you can learn all the words and grammer fairly quickly, but it takes a while to be fluent.
EDIT
A book you may want to pick up for learning C# is C# in a Nutshell (3.0) which I found to be very useful, and has been recommended by several people here.
If you want to learn, REALLY want to learn, then time is not of consequence. Just move forward everyday. Let your passion for this stuff drive you forward. And one day you'll see that you are good at C#/.NET.
You'll pick up c# fairly quickly (the language syntax is not that complicated). It will take you a long time to really learn the .NET framework, but you'll pick up the heavily used parts of the framework fairly quickly, and you should start seeing patterns in the framework.
My advice to you: don't just learn from a book or website. They will teach you the language and framework, but they will not teach you how to program anything useful.
Writing little code snippets will teach you how to do a very specific tasks, but they do not teach you how to write applications. My suggestion is that you think of an app that might be fun to work on (and doable... e.g. don't think that you're going to write an operating system or crysis or something in a month or two). Personally, when I was learning, wrote my own full featured IRC app, complete with rich text, personal messaging, etc.
The answer in my view is related to whether you have a tangible problem to solve or if you just want to learn for example to be prepared for a possible new job. If you have a problem then you are in better shape. You can start by looking around and seeing how other people went about solving that problem. Languages in general you should be able to pick up fairly quickly (after all you hold an MS in EE, no small feat IMO).
What you need to be on the lookout for is good programming practices. You'll probably see yourself asking "why is this method so small", "why is this method empty and what the heck is this abstract word doing here". That will give you perspective beyond syntax towards good writing.
When I switched careers out of Finance, I took 9 months off to study C++ full-time out of a book by Ivor Horton. I had a lot of support from my best friend, who is a guru, and I had been programming as a hobby since high school (I was 36 at the time).
It's not just the syntax that's an issue. The idea of things like pointers, passing by reference, multi-tiered architectures, struct's vs classes, etc., these all take time to understand and learn to use. And you're adding to that the .Net framework, which is huge and constantly evolving, and SQL, which is a totally different skill set than C#. You also haven't mentioned various subsets of the framework that are becoming more widely used, like WPF, WCF, WF, etc.
You're an academic so you can definitely do it, but it's going to take serious effort for a long time, and you definitely will need some projects to work on and learn from. Good luck to you.
According to Malcolm Gladwell, it will take you 10,000 hours to get really good. So get cracking.
Simple answer: a lot longer than two months. Learning to program competently will take longer than that, no matter what. It took me years to learn to be a competent object-oriented programmer, and I'm good at this stuff.
More detailed answers: it doesn't really matter whether you learn C# or SQL first, as they're very different. I'd probably suggest SQL, as it's easier to learn and more independently useful.
You will have a hard time getting used to the on-the-job realities at home, much as if you were studying plumbing or quantitative finance.
You're going to have a hard time putting all the information together without one or more projects you try to do. You're going to need to have other people to tell you when you're being stupid, when you're being overclever and will pay for it later, and when you're actually getting it.
Try to find an open source project you find vaguely interesting. Study their code. Figure out why they do what they do. Look at the bug list, and try to find something as trivial as possible to fix. Work from there. Learning to contribute is going to teach you things that are useful in the work world, and it will give you something to point at. It will be far easier to get your first job if you have some experience to point to.
All "relativity" aside, not fast. Based on the fact that you said you never programmed before...to become a basic programmer, a few years.
And to become a good to outstanding (using design patterns and industry recognized standards that relate to common standards as defined by ISO/IEC 9126 Standard such as testability, maintainability, etc.) programmer, it takes years of experience and coding often.. you do not become "Sr." or an "Architect" overnight and the same thing is true for a mid-level developer who doesn't code slop.
It's always a process where you improve. So learning is relative. But to learn the basics, seems simple until you start to design classes and interfaces. And even Leads stumble on the basics..doing things wrong. Everyone does. There is so much to be aware of.
If you're just going to be adding features (using classes your Lead or Architect has stubbed out for the team) and not really adding new classes, etc. it's easier....but you should take care in coding using standards and you still have to know complex areas of OOP. But that's not really OOP. When you start to creating classes, interfaces and knowing about inheritance, heap, references, etc. yada yada...and REALLY understanding it takes time no matter how smart you are or think you may be.
So, for a new programmer. Not easy. Be prepared to code a lot. And if you are not, find a job where you are. It's all about coding as much possible so you can get better.
Read these books FIRST. Do not dive into any others out there because they are not geared toward teaching you the language in a way you can get up to speed fast:
http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Object-Oriented-Analysis-Design/dp/0596008678/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231280335&sr=8-4
http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-SQL-Brain-Learners/dp/0596526849/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231280335&sr=8-7
http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-C-Brain-Friendly-Guides/dp/0596514824/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231280393&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/First-Design-Patterns-Elisabeth-Freeman/dp/0596007124/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231280393&sr=8-3
they will get you the fasted jump start into understanding, better than any books out there.
Also for these lame type of responses, ignore them:
"Then again, plenty of people (most normal people, non-programmers) never learn those subjects, so if you're like "most" people then the answer would be "it would take forever" or "it will never happen"."
Those come from developers (typically leads) who have some Ego trip that DON'T want you to learn. Everyone learns differently and at different paces and eventually you will become "fast". I get very tired of hearing Sr. developers say statements like this when their sh** also stinks many times no matter how good they are. Instead they should be helping the team to succeed and learn as long as their team is working hard to keep abreast and doing what they can on their own as well (not leachers).
Make sure you try to get a Jr. Level Developer position first...
2-3 months to learn the basics...no way. Unless you're gonna code spaghetti sure. Same goes for the 1-2 years. Spaghetti it is then..
Build on what you already know and have a look at lot of job adverts. E.g I have seen jobs asking for WinForms/WPF AND electronics for the writing of a UI to control a custom bit of hardware.
You may find the “robotics” .net toolkit interesting.
.Net is now too big for anyone to learn both WEB and Desktop so you have to decide the way you are going to go. Web has lots more jobs, but there are very few people with good desktop stills.
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I love programming languages and trying to think of logical solutions to problems. A lot I have been reading on C# and the underworkings of WPF. (Also Python and PyQt) In all my college courses in programming, I learn absolutely nothing (What a variable is, what an array is, NOT what stack and heap are, NOT what CLR/JVM actually does) I feel I have a very good grasp on the basics and a decent grasp on the more substantial topics.
I have been trying to make my own C#/WPF app that is governed by input sensors and output relays for home/shop automation.
I am having trouble to just do certain things. For example. make a user control to be used by a central control that also controls another user control while having a database layer.
I would really like to learn how to structure logically programs and what best design is (for example, I hate having a program filled with if/else statements). The problem is, the books I find only have basic examples that don't really deepen my overall undestanding of how all the pieces need to work together.
How do I start to do things?
You find an open-source (or at least "source available at no cost" -- not quite the same thing, but the difference should only matter if you plan to redistribute your results) project that does "something like" (maybe "vaguely" like;-) what you're trying to do, and is coded in a language that you know or want to learn.
You duplicate the source tree for that project to your machine and put the duplicate under a version control system (svn, hg, git, bazaar -- whatever -- there's a bazillion good, free ones) quite independendently from any VCS it might have been in originally -- the point is being able to save your edits all the time, and revert them easily if and when you make mistakes.
Then you start hacking, looking things up in docs and forums, asking on SO, etc, as needed;-).
There is no "one shoe fits all" solution in programming world. But i do recommend you a book. Hope you like it.
Head First Design Patterns
(O'Reilly)
Honestly... truly... the best answer? Do stuff.
I learned a lot in school. Tons. But as you said, there is a level that schools don't touch. I've got a deeper understanding in my 2 months of programming/data analyst than I got in 2 years getting my AA in programming.
Realize one thing: School is there to teach you a wide range of things - to a minimum level. You won't become an expert from school alone (There are exceptions... as with any rule).
How have I actually started to understand stuff? Programming. Boss gave me a program task and I ran with it.
Personally, I've really liked Apress books. C# 2008 Illustrated (or the soon to be released 2010) has proved invaluable to me. I actually read 95% of the book, double checked examples... and most importantly... put them into practice in my horrible first programming task. I've re-factored at-least 5 times already, and already am seeing things that will make me do it again.
I don't know if you have a job... or a hobby... an open source program you'd like to help with... or a task you'd like to automate. Pick something, learn it inside out, then program it.
Personally, again... I'd say joining an already running open-source project is too much. I tried a few times and it was too much for me. To many things I didn't understand. I plan to try again once I get a little better, but I don't plan on hanging out on NBA courts when I can barely dribble the ball myself... if ya know what I mean.
How do I start to do things?
Find a problem that needs solving and writing a program to do it. It doesn't have to pretty or efficient. The program just needs to work. As you work with the program you'll begin to learn better techniques for accomplishing the task you set for yourself. Google and SO will be your friends and help you learn those better techniques.
As other have said, jumping straight into controlling hardware with C# may not be a simple task for your first program.
Good luck.
Read Martin Fowler's book Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code.
Martin Fowler gives you the building blocks to think about high level design decisions by introducing you to all the low level decisions you may or may not be aware that you are making. He also gives a good introductions to the concept of code smells.
Look at design principles like DRY Do Not Repeat Yourself, KISS Keep It Simple Stupid, and keep it consistent(Pet Peeve).
More design principles here
Design Principles.
Practice these principles as often as possible especially in your course work and outside projects..
Get involved in open source
Hard to do but probably will help you the most especially when combined with the first two.
Personal Experience feel free to skip.
After three years of tough undergrad I realized I could solve some really complex proofs but I didn't know how to write anything but spaghetti code. The longest projects I had were 5 months long which was enough time for it really to catch up with me. I was usally very productive for the first 2-3 months but was crawling along from the code debt by month 4. At this point I had the same realization you did.
Everyone says the best way to learn was to practice but I didn't know how to practice.
I realized that the problem with thinking about design was I couldn't move one design into another. A professor mentioned Martin Fowler's book Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code and that has made all the difference.
I am in the last year of undergraduate degree and i am stumped by the lack of example in c++ and c# large project in my university. All the mini project and assignment are based on text based database, which is so inefficient, and console display and command, which is frustrating.
I want to develop a complete prototype of corporate software which deals in Inventory, Sales, Marketing, etc. Everything you would usually find in SAP. I am grateful if any of you could direct me to a books or article or sample program.
Some of the question are :
How to plan for this kind of programming? should i use the concept of 1 object(such as inventory) have its own process and program and have an integrator sit for all the program, or should i integrate it in 1 big program?
How to build and address a database? i have little bit knowledge in database and i know SQL but i never address database in a program before. Database are table, and how do you suppose to represent a table in a OOP way?
For development type, which is better PHP and C++ or C# and ASP.NET? I am planning to use Web Interface to set form and information, but using a background program to handle the compute. .NET is very much integrated and coding should be much faster, but i really wonder about performance if compared to PHP and C++ package
thank you for the info
This may not answer your question directly, but I thought this might help you get started in some way. So here it goes: I would say, "think through the process". This means, think through the software development process:
Gather requirements
Identify and define the problem.
Get as much information/facts as you can. (turn on green light, think about everything that you want to go into your software)
Come up with a baseline (turn on red lights, what you really want? the minimum functionality your software "must have" - cant live without)
Analyze
Know what you don’t know, what are the missing facts?
Evaluate your information or lack of it/reliability of information source.
Infer facts that you don’t know.
Form an assumption, opinion, or possible solutions.
Consider alternatives and implications of each solution.
Form an action plan.
Identify technology pros/cons.
Decide technology
Comeup with a functional specs.
Research
Dig into stuff that you would want to know (Best database, ORM, design practices, code samples - gather everything, read about inventory systems that are already there)
Design
Develop
Test
Fix
Prepare deployment plan
Release the product
Gather user feedback
Analyze user feedback
Plan for items in next release.
Repeat steps
And Enjoy!
Before I start this is a shallow answer to a deep question.
1) It looks like you have a reasonable grasp of the major components of your target application. As a .net developer I'd build assemblies that matched broad areas of functionality (not sure what the equivalent is in PHP) and then you can use those assemblies together as a single large app, or seperately as required. It's unlikely you'll get it right first time, so build it how it feels right, and then do some ruthless refactoring to make it better once you've got a handled on the problem.
2) This whole area is covered by Object Relational Mapping - ORM, NHibernate is the best of the bunch in the .Net world. BTW if you learn that you'll be way ahead of the game come graduation/work time. Raw sql is so last decade. I guess you know that Sql Server Express is a free download?
3) For development go with the languages/environment you feel most comfortable in. My preference is .net, and the integrated coding is much faster. Performance is definitely good enough, especially as this is learning project - SO runs on .Net and that supports a gazillion users pretty well.
Enjoy
I don't have any good recommendations for SAP-like projects in particular, but in general the best examples to use for things like this are well-established open-source projects. Anything else is going to be a "toy" example in one way or the other, and will be simplified and cleaned up. It's the "cleaned up" that makes it most unrealistic -- one of the really key things that makes real-world large software projects different from university examples is that the real world is messy, and real-world requirements are messy, and collaboration between lots of people with not quite the same priorities is messy, and real-world software projects have to adapt to and thrive in this messiness.
In answer to your specific questions, though:
1.) Do things in a modular way. This means you have something you can test and work with as soon as you get the first module done. That's especially important when you're learning, because (a) you probably won't have time to actually finish the whole thing, (b) you'll learn a lot from writing the first bit that you'll want to apply in future bits and then you'll probably want to rewrite the first bit, and (c) you'll learn even more from using the first bit.
2.) There are many views on this, and many online articles and books. I can't answer that in an answer here (except to note that in some cases trying to represent it in an OOP way is the wrong programming paradigm -- be careful about overconstraining the answer by the question you ask!); the right answer is to find things to read and spend some days reading them.
3.) You do not care about that sort of performance issue here. Successful programs have been written in both forms. You care about what will teach you the most, and what you are comfortable working with. Either one should be fine. You'll probably find more open-source pieces to look at with PHP and C++.
Your question pretty much covers the whole gamut of planning for a project; a whole thesis might be written (+:
Keep in mind what your team and your teaching-staff want out of the project.
1) Modular is my choice. It'll force you to address the application one module at a time and keep you focussed, but that is subject to
The familiarity of your team with the preferred/recommended language for this project.
Time in hand
Remember that modular means you will necessarily have to provide for module integration too.
2) C++ or C# ? Whichever offers the more learning experience. My own experience with both mentioned technologies is limited, but I remember there used to be a Database Template Library (DTL). C# on the other hand will probably be faster to develop. I could be wrong. There are any number of free DBMS engines available on the net. Unless the assignment explicitly recommends using a text, opt for one of these.
3) I concur w/Brooks up there ^^^
Good Luck!
You are a university undergraduate. And you are talking about complete inventory system.
I suggest building a blog application first with all the best practices (like blogengine), then move to e-commerece sites (nopcommerce, dotcommerce). And then do whatever you like.
This is a common problem with undergrads like you, of jumping way higher without building any simple projects first.
As a full time PHP developer, PHP sucks! ASP.net is okay (mmm... no it sucks too), but it locks you into proprietary licenses.
If you're starting from scratch, go for node.js. It's c++ and server-side javascript. Yes, it's new, but it has engineering promise. It'll be more commonplace in a few years.
And if you're worried about performance, don't. Javascript in V8 is extremely fast.
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php
Here are some node.js links to get you started:
http://www.delicious.com/homer6/nodejs
Enjoy.
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I am a 4th year computer science student, at university alot of my projects were Java based so I am pretty used to the language, platform and apis. However for a long time, I have been reading alot regarding the .net platform improvements and it's large career opportunities (at least in my country). Now I am considering shifting to the microsoft world. I have several questions:
Would it be severe to shift to .NET platform, as when I start my career I will be lacking the "4 years of java experiance" to a "1 year of c#/.net experience"?
How harsh transaction from java world to .net world would be ?
It feels like the future of Sun (and Java as a result) seems a bit blurry, can it be an issue on the long run ?
EDIT:
Sorry for the edit, I want to add that I am more into the telecommunication field (even tho I have no internship/job experience in this field yet). Plus indeed java is not my only language. I am really used to Python, LISP, Javascript,Php and some other markup languages.
Thanks
It will certainly be a shift, largely in terms of learning the .NET framework when you're used to the Java APIs. A lot of the concepts are the same, but it's a case of learning where to find things. You shouldn't expect to effectively have 4 years of C#/.NET experience - but you'll have 4 years of general software development, which is certainly important in and of itself.
Moving from C# to Java isn't too bad, although generics are very different in C#. You'll find there are a lot of features in recent versions of C# which aren't in Java, and it's worth getting to know them to use the language to its best advantage.
Personally I find C# to be a much more elegant and powerful language than Java - and certainly one which has evolved a lot more rapidly. I use both on a regular basis, but my heart is with C#... and that's having come from a Java background like yourself. I certainly don't regret "moving" from Java to C#, particularly as it isn't so much a "move" as just adding an extra string to your bow. It's not like you're giving up your Java experience to learn .NET.
Having said all this, I don't think you need to worry about Java disappearing any time soon. I think it's reasonable to have concerns over the glacial rate of progress of the core API and language (although 3rd party libraries and indeed languages are moving rather faster) but I'm sure companies will be actively developing new products in Java for quite a few years to come.
If you don't want to become the next cobol developer, get used to changing languages. Java and C# will be around for a couple of years, and so will the underlying platforms. But things will change, so better to get used to it.
You have exactly 0 years of experience. Anything done in school or university doesn't count. The reason is: the requirements are completely different. The school stuff might be way more difficult from a CS point of view, but it has fixed, rather clear requirements, and you don't have to support it for 10 years. So again get used to it: It was hopefully a fun time, but it does not count as experience.
C# was in the beginning almost a copy of Java. Now those guys have a lot of interesting features, that java is lacking. But still it should be easy to learn one, when you know the other.
For a job: It is irrelevant how many jobs there are. You only want one anyway right? So you should check what kind of job you are interested in? Web, Mobile, Embedded, Rich Client, Big Servers.
So what is the real advice? Go, find an employer NOW. Tell them you'd like to work in [whenever you are done] and you'd like them to tell you what you should learn in the mean time.
Personally I don't think Java is going away anytime soon, so IMHO Java is just as good a career move as .NET if not better. In any case, I would say that both options will give you plenty of job opportunities.
The languages are pretty similar so you'll most likely find the transition easy, but obviously you need to familiarize yourself with various libraries and frameworks as well (depending on what type of applications you'll focus on).
A lot of what you know from the Java world is really OO, patterns and so forth and that will apply equally well in the .NET world.
I work for a .NET shop, and I can say that as a hiring manager/interviewer, I don't think of a lack of .NET experience from a recent college grad to be a problem -- very few colleges and universities use Microsoft tools, and as other posters have said, the platforms are conceptually similar. What I expect from a recent college grad is energy, enthusiasm, and a solid grasp of CS fundamentals.
That said, I also don't consider a four year degree to be "4 years of java experience" -- student projects are nice on the resume, and are good to talk about in interviews, but unless you have been doing a lot of coding for hire on the side, one year of "real world" experience (where your job is to write software) teaches more about work ethic and delivery than 4 or more years in college.
It depends a bit on what type of personality you have and on what level you understand java. Allot of concepts are the same between the two platforms only with different implementation details, syntax, names etc... on one level I find .net easier since you often deal with all Microsoft products which tend to align with each other pretty well as where in the java space I've had to spent time figuring out how to get product A by supplier X to work together with product B by supplier Y. So if you have more then what I would call a "literal" understanding of java the move should be very easy.
I think you should be able to find jobs in both platforms just as easily imho
If perhaps this move is also being fuelled by eagerness to learn new things then I would advice you to go for something different like a dynamic or functional language.
There are a couple of books which focus on moving from java to c# (I haven't read them so I can not advice on one) but those should really get you up to speed in a matter of hours/days.
I wouldn't bother with learning C# for career purposes. And I say this as a happily employed C# programmer. :-) Oh, I suppose an explanation is in order...
It's much more valuable to know diverse languages. When I'm hiring for a position that's going to be writing C#, I'd much rather hire somebody with lots of Java experience and also some Scheme and Erlang (and no C# at all), than somebody with just Java and C#.
C# really seems to combine two things: the static typing and syntax from the Java world, and a handful of additional features and syntax from the functional world. If you know Java, Lisp, Python, and Javascript, then you can learn C# -- or pretty much anything else -- in almost no time at all. (You won't land an architect position, but you won't be getting that right out of school, anyway.)
The only trick is finding an employer enlightened enough to realize this, and not simply one that feeds resumes through a pattern matcher. But simply putting "Lisp" on your resume is often enough to turn the right heads.
java and .net are both fine i guess.
as long as you want to keep portability to linux, mac os or any other system, you might keep on java. if you want .net-applications for other platforms, you would need to rely on Mono, which is for sure a great project but in my opinion not yet stable enough for production.
if you want to stay on microsoft-world, i consider C# as one of the best development tool i've ever seen. indeed the visual studio, which provides many important coding features really makes the work easy.
they're both approximately the same from the learning aspect. java lacks operator overloading which is an important point in my eyes. .net might lack other features java is better at... and generally i guess in most of the applications, .net is faster than java.
hope this helped a bit
regards
If you write in C#, you will find a lot of similarities to the Java language, and the CLR shares many concepts with the Java runtime, too.
You could as well write both. For exercise i created a chat-program in C# and the server for it in Java and had a lot of fun doing that. You could concentrate on .NET and occasionally use Java. Nothing wrong with that, anyway, more important than being used to a language is the concepts you learn over the years, such as design patterns, best practices and algorithms. Those will help you to understand any new framework or library much quicker as you recognize the patterns and purpose behind it.
I agree with most of the advice others have already given. Both platforms are here to stay and both should provide decent career opportunities.
Just a word of caution though. You write "at least in my country" regarding .Net opportunities. I think you also need to consider "at least in my country" when deciding how large the career impact will be in the short term.
I have worked extensively in both the USA and Germany. My experience has been that, in the USA people are hired more for demonstrated ability than for resume points, but in Germany the situation was reversed. You will have to weigh the short-term impact in your country, unless you want to post which country that is and hopefully someone on SO has experience with that country.
Your Java experience and concepts will come in handy when transitioning to C# and they're not too different (to a certain extent, of course). I won't go into much detail about that aspect of your question since others have made good comments.
What I wanted to add is that although employers may not consider school experience to be equivalent to real world experience, don't let that stop you from referencing them on your resume. Be prepared to talk about them during the interview, as well as any side projects or interests you have. These are good for the "tell me about your favorite project?" and "what did you like most about that project?" type of questions. Be enthusiastic to learn and show a willingness to improve your skills. You can also show that you find certain aspects of C# appealing (perhaps contrast to Java) and that you're confident you'll be able to pick things up quickly and apply yourself.
Job experience is vastly different from the experience you get as a student.
Personally I think you should learn as much as you can while studying - this DEFINTIIVELY includes exotic languages - and only knowing one language, makes you a one-trick pony.
So, get your teachers to teach you exotic stuff. Like functional languages using pattern matching, logical languages for a vastly different approach to evaluating lots of possibilities, assembly language for doing the actual bit stuff, and all these other mind blowing things that people do for FUN and LEARNING :)
I've been a software developer for 10 years and came all the way from a wild world of assembly language programming, then server side of C++ and COM, and for the last 5 years I was comfortably settled in a quiet world of .NET, C# and development of business applications.
The problem is - the last couple of years was so comfortable and I was also spending almost half of my time doing a BA's work, that I feel like I forgot a good part of low level C# language, Design Pattern and ASP.NET. And after almost 5 years of not using C++ for a big projects my skills in that language are even worse.
That does not mean I can't program - I do it every day and quite successfully - but I feel what I would not be able to pass most of tough job interviews should the need arises, which is very likely in a current recession. And the reasons I think I would not pass - is that I forgot all the standard things what usually people are being asked on the interviews (e.g. I use the design patterns - but if you ask me - which pattern what that - I would probably not give you the correct name, because all he DP for me are just a smart ways of using static functions and virtual functions).
Can someone please point me to a resource or give me an advice (can I have both please?),
how can I quickly (in a week or so) could brush up my knowledge of C#/.NET, DP and ASP.NET to the level of the very good senior dev (whom I was a 2 years ago). As for the C++ - I am willing to spend a month to get my knowledge back again, but this is of less priority.
Please do understand me right - I am not a newbie and all these things I knew before - just want to be back in business 100% again.
Thank you.
For Design Patterns, I would suggest to get a copy of Head First Design Patterns.
Regarding ASP.NET, C# and the usage of some patterns, watching Rob Connerys ASP.NET MVC Storefront Webcasts would be a good start.
What you could also do, is having a look at Scott Hanselmanns interview questions which you can find at his blog. Try to find an answer to all of them and you should be in pretty good shape ;-)
In addition, I'd have a look at the code of some successfull open source projects like subtext, DasBlog, Oxite ...
They are a great learning ressource.
The next step could be to contribute to some of those projects (sending some patches to the project admins), because nothing can replace practice ...
However you should keep in mind, that one week might not be enough time to resharpen your skills.
Good luck anyway
Well, since you knew all this, which I guess means "have used all this" previously,
you could take look back at your own code as a starting point.
Really ask yourself:
why did I do it like this?
when was this, what situation was I in?
can I do it better now?
Take a small tricky and interesting part of the program out, and try to
recode it.
This is all meant to get you mentally back to those times, pick up a few discarded
threads in memory. I find such methods really useful to reactivate knowledge.
Then read up on new developments/best practices on blogs and books and skim through
books that used to be useful to you (maybe there are current editions)
I used scott meyer's "Effective C++..." series to get me back into and
advance my knowledge of c++.
Design Patterns are covered in many books today. The stanard of course is the "Gang of Four" book named "Design Patterns".
Put OO, Agile and Pattern together
Another book is more hands-on and combines Design Patterns with an other new thing -- "Agile Development". The good thing is, that design patterns are presented in live examples and interestingly presented in context. I think Robert C. Martin also brings a lot of insight into many OO development principles. The book is called Agile Software development.
But of course, it depends how far you want to go. Do you really want to brush up your knowledge (then I could maybe give further hints) or do you want to just be upto date for interviews?
I've found that the asp.net videos on www.asp.net/learn are very good for quickly learning about (or remembering) many asp.net topics.
Slides on design patterns in C#
Well if you have some two months to bursh up C++ and design patterns then I would recommend you the following books .
- C++ FAQ Second Edition
- Effective C+++
- Effective STL
I think for C++ this should be sufficient, if you have some more time you can also try
Inside c++ Object Mode
For design Patterns
I think reading complete book at one go is not a good idea.
Try to list down few design patterns from each category creational, structural and behavioral that you have worked on or that you want to talk in interviews.
There are lot of resources on net about each of them and try to completely understand each of them rather than jumping into a book and getting almost lost.
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My path to a 'fulltime'- developer stated as a analyst using VBA with Excel, Access, and then onto C#. I went to college part time once I discovered I had a passion for coding not business.
I do about most of my coding in C#, but being an ASP.NET developer I also write in HTML, JavaScript, SQL etc. . . the usual suspects.
I like to keep moving forward find the edge that will get me to the next level, the next job, and of course more money. Most importantly I just want to learning something new and challenge me.
I have spent time recently learning LINQ, but was wondering what should I learn next? Something on the .NET Framework or a new language technology?
If you want to be one of the best you need to specialise. If you become very good in many skills then you may never become truly excellent in one. I know because I have taken this route myself and have found it difficult to get employment at times. After all, who wants someone who is capable at many languages when there is someone who excels at the specific thing they need. If a company develops in C# then who would want someone who is OK at C# but also is good at C, Visual Basic, Perl and Cobol, when all they really want is the best possible C# developer for the money they can afford.
After all, you will only ever be employed for one, maybe two of your skills. There are very few jobs for people who are good in 10 or 15 skills.
If you are looking to a new skill then maybe check out the job boards and find which skills are particularly in need, but be aware that what is the flavour of the month this year may not even be on the scene next year, which will make all of that effort to learn the skill futile and wasted.
What I would say is:
do one thing, and do it well. This may include supporting skills (C#, ASP.Net, SQL, LINQ etc).
If you want to choose something else, then choose something complementary.
Possibly most importantly, choose something you will enjoy. Maybe Ruby on Rails is the current flavour of the month, but if you don't enjoy doing it, then don't do it. Really, it's not worth it. You will never wish, on your death bed, that you had worked more in something you didn't enjoy.
Another direction you could look at is maybe not for a particular development skill, but look for something else, maybe soft skills like people management, better business understanding or even look to something like literary skills to help improve your communications skills. All of these will help to allow you to do what you want to do more, and cut down on the stuff you really don't enjoy, thus helping to make your job more enjoyable.
Apologies for the waffling here. Hope you are still awake :)
Yeah, the more I get into software, I start to see myself focusing less on the language and more on the design..
Yeah there are framework bits we need to get our head around but most of the time ( most not all ) you can look those up as-and-when you need them..
But a good design head? That takes years of experience to start getting it working right..
And that is what the companies really pay for.. "Build it and they will come" and all that...
As you continue to gain more experience in ASP.Net, C#, etc - it's always good to go check out the competition and see if it sparks ideas on how you can do things better in what you're doing. Taking a look at something like Rails or Django might change how you look at designing or building your apps.
If you're now proficient with the languages and technologies you use, then start spending more time focusing on the design, solution architecture, and systems integration. The "bigger picture" that will set you apart from your contemporaries.
Check out some Martin Fowler books like "Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture", or Eric Evans' "Domain-Driven Design".
Maybe learn more about Usability (best practices, testing, etc.) if you haven't already done so.
Steve Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" is a good book to start with. Jakob Nielsen always has interesting stuff as well.
The more languages you know, the more marketable you are. Look and see what the more popular (market for, not fan base) languages are, then add on some cutting edge tech that is not in much use yet, rounded out by general programming skill.
With your skill set I would recommend (as far as languages):
Java as a starting point
For .Net add in the .Net MVC (you have LINQ or that would be here also)
Language agnostic skills:
Design Patterns (includes the MVC)
Domain Driven Design
Test Driven Design
Here would be my suggestions:
1) Design Patterns - These are really neat as well as being very useful in some situations.
2) AJAX - Assuming you haven't already done some of this, it is an interesting part of Web Development from my view.
3) Determine which parts of the chain do you enjoy the most: Front-end work(HTML, CSS, Javascript), middleware(C# for business logic parts), or back-end(MS-SQL with stored procedures, indexes, triggers, and all that stuff). If it is all of it then try to stay where the team doing web development is small as otherwise you may be asked to choose.
4) Algorithm design and analysis - Do you know various sorting algorithms? Do you know various techniques to create an algorithm, e.g. greedy, recursion, divide and conquer, dynamic programming, using custom data types like heap in heapsort etc. This can be new and cool.
5) Determine if there is a part of the development process you favor: Analyst, designer, programmer, tester, debugger? All can have varying degrees of being near the code, IMO.
# Michael DSL=Domain Specific Language
As for what you should learn, that depends on what you're interested in.
Are you looking to challenge yourself while staying in the same medium (web-centric applications)? I would suggest learning about Apache and the LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP) architecture and challenge yourself to build a web application that you could readily build with ASP .NET using it.
Want to learn something completely different? Try Prolog or LISP and see what you can do with those.
Maybe you'd like to get into embedded software? Learn C to start.
You have a wide variety of ways to improve your skills, and each one has career paths attached to them. (Well, maybe not Prolog, but it's fun!)
Why don't you swap stacks and look at the LAMP stack?
Or how about a functional language like haskell?
Or write a DSL?
Or an app for your phone?